tragedy
Listening to Glenn Beck today (people, if you watch ANY tv, watch Glenn - CNN) he asks, honestly, if anyone was truly shocked this week. I can't say it the way he did, but I hope I can get the point across. He said, essentially, that yes, we were shocked, and sad, but were we horrified? Really truly shocked? Did we feel the way we did when Columbine happened? 9-11?
We're desensitized. It's sad. It makes me scared for the future. People are saying we need more gun control when what we really need is more Love. More Acceptance of Religion, of Christianity specifically because while the world tries to 'accept' religion they boycott Christianity. We need more God - in schools, in government, in the Pledge of Allegiance and on coins. Why can't people see this? They don't have to BE Christians, They don't have to go to Church, but why can't they accept that good comes from letting others do it? You know what I truly believe? ...we've invited Satan in, with wide open arms, and he's just doing his job.
Is that harsh? I'm sorry. There's another part of me that thinks that tragedies have been happening for years, in different places and countries and that it's the state of the world, and not just the state of now, 2007...
Either way... my heart is breaking for so many people right now. It's so easy to know that it could have been anywhere, any college, anywhere...
posted by yellowgirl @ 6:39 PM
11 Comments:
I think there are a lot of people in this country who would claim to be Christian or at least claim to believe in God. My question for each of those people is "how does your belief change the way you live your life?" I think that so many people have head knowledge but don't ever let it really affect their day-to-day existence. If you claim to be a Christian but nothing about your life is any different than the way a non-Christian lives, then what (if anything) is really different about you?
You said: "Why can't they accept that good comes from letting others do it [be Christian/go to church]?" I think it's because they've believed the lie. The lie that Satan tells us that it's repressive and restrictive to be Christian, that "true freedom" comes from the lack of morality, that Christians openly professing their faith somehow threatens their [non-Christian's] identity and right to freedom.
Sorry - long comment (I'm not even sure all of it relates directly to your post, but it is what it is)
I think you may be missing something - look at how, after things like 9-11, Columbine, and yes, Virginia Tech - the Christians rally together and do something about it rather than just talk...wait! Do you see them rallying? No. Maybe they are and maybe they aren't...maybe the problem is that the media isn't covering that. Christians use this to say "let us take over" but then the nonChristians don't see any reason why...if we can't respond AFTER tragedy, what makes us think more of us would STOP tragedy?? Part of me thinks it's actually good that this is starting to happen more frequently in the States...because it's a reality of every single day for the greatest majority of the world. 'Bout time we understood what others go through. And about time we did what we could to help, here and abroad.
wow. good points both of you. Lets do something then. really. i'm going to think on this.
i don't disagree with most of this, but you have to remember that not everyone is christian and not everyone wants to be christian, whether you think that's right or not. i actually agree we should allow religion in schools and encourage acceptance and love. but a lot of people say that meaning we need to allow christianity. you can't preach one thing and not let the others in. the very basic ideals of pretty much all religions are the same and that's what should be taught. the specifics and whether you believe in the bible or some other thing belong in church unless you're willing to let kids learn it all in school. i have yet to hear one christian say yeah, let's let it all in. i agree christianity gets crapped on in terms of prayer being kept out of school, etc., but a lot of times what christians are asking for is their beliefs only to be accepted. christians get mad for not being allowed to "openly profess their faith," but how many other religions are encouraged to do that?
I actually disagree Karen, and I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on it. I feel like Christianity gets shut out and just about EVERY other religion has doors wide open to them. In schools, in communities, in the media, everywhere.
I thought I did say that not everyone has to be Christian, but I would like it if they would just accept it and stop shutting it out.
Example: I've seen examples and will try to look them up tonight, of where a Christian tried to have a prayer group or something in a school and was refused, while another religious group had been holding their group activity in the same place. For some reason we're being 'open' to religion when we allow everything else and push away Christianity.
And part of it is our fault - Christians don't get pissed off and offended when people slam them the way many other groups do. Sometimes I think we should... yet, that's not what we're taught...
I haven't ever heard of or seen of a case where other religions are allowed to have their prayers in schools or their religious wordings on things related to government. That doesnt' mean it's not happening in individual cases here and there.
I'm also sure there are examples of Christian groups not being allowed to do things other groups are. It happens. It doesn't make it right. I haven't seen the examples, but I'm not looking for them, the same way I doubt you're looking for examples of other religions being discriminated against.
But Christianity is hardly suffering. And often it's Christians pushing others out or alienating others.
I agree Christianity is the most visible being "shut out," but I don't agree it's the only thing being shut out. Nor do I totally agree it's "shut out." It IS in the pledge, on coins, everywhere and always has been. And Christians ARE usually pitching a fit whenever any other religion gets any time. They're not sitting back quietly taking it. Not even close to it. Nor should they, but it's awfully hypocritical to demand fair time when others aren't allowed in. Do you want your kids saying Muslim prayers at the beginning of every school day? Yet nonchristians are expected to.
The reason religion is not allowed in places like schools is because that's not the place for it. You go to school to learn math, not what God to believe in. I don't want my children taught by their teachers who to believe in. That's not their role. However, I do think kids in school should be taught about all religions. We might be a lot more understanding of each other if we actually learned a thing or two about what the other believes, instead of trying so hard to make everyone think the same. I think Christians get the brunt of it because it's probably the most visible religion.
You did not say everyone has to be Christian, but you did suggest that everyone whose not should just sit back and leave it alone. Which is fine, but Christians aren't willing to do that for other religions.
For me personally, I can get behind the idea of Christianity but I find I push it away because I get really sick of the self-righteousness. The idea that Christianity is the only way and is the only thing that should be allowed, that all laws should be based on Christian beliefs and if you don't share those beliefs, you're supposed to just sit back and let Christians be in charge.
My personal faith is personal. It should not play out in government decisions, it shouldn't dictate how my children are taught in the classroom and it shouldn't matter to my neighbors what I believe in.
2 thoughts:
1. Perhaps it's different here in Virginia because this is where the shootings happened, but from what I've seen, Christians and non-Christians are all reaching out to support the families of the victims and the Virginia Tech community. I can't even tell you how many prayer services have been held this week both on campus and at area churches. Tomorrow at noon they're holding a ceremony on campus in honor of those who lost their lives on Monday and representatives from all the campus ministries will be speaking. I think that in times of great tragedy such as this it is not a time for proselytizing but a time for reaching out to those in need, sharing in their sorrow, and offering support in whatever way is most needed.
Just a couple days ago I was reading a passage in Matthew that talks about not doing your good deeds in public but doing them in secret because those that receive human praise have already received their reward. So that just makes me think about how many ways people (both Christians and non-Christians) may be reaching out in response to this situation that we may never know about, and maybe we don't need to know.
2. In the many years that I've spent in academe, I can say with a lot of conviction that Christianity is probably the least well-received religion on college campuses. Yes, there are groups like Campus Crusade and InterVarsity that generally have strong presences on campus, but if you were to enter into the realm of the professors and graduate students, you would find that Christianity is very much not welcome. If you want to be Hindu, Buddhist, etc., you'll get lots of encouragement and props for exploring your spirituality, but if you mention that you're Christian, I have been amazed at how quickly people shut down in conversation when that piece of information is revealed. I would not go as far as to generalize my experiences in academe to society as a whole, but in my experience, I definitely have felt that Christianity is not a welcome faith in many circles.
I think a lot of that may stem from abuses that have happened throughout history in the name of Christianity. I also think that Christianity has a bad rap at the moment because of many attempts to legislate a particular belief system. That can never work because changes have to happen on an individual/heart-level rather than a societal/legal-level.
I'm going to learn to stop commenting on these posts because I think we know by now you and I are on opposite ends of this spectrum and will just go in circles, but I agree with Melissa on a couple things:
1. it's not just christians who reach out when tragedies happen. christians aren't the only good people in the world, and christians don't have all the answers. if we all turned christian, there would still be trouble in the world. our country's been run by self-described christians for the past six years and i'm hard-pressed to find much that has gone well. i think the correct word would be disastrous.
2. I agree Christianity is not always a faith that is welcome. i'm not sure i agree it is shut out where others are let in, but i agree there is a negative perception of christianity right now. i don't think that's christianity itself - meaning the beliefs and tenets. i think it's the people "practicing" christianity. and i agree it comes a lot from legislating certain beliefs.
i don't think that comes from long-ago historic things. I think it comes more from the past few years. i don't remember religion being so prominent in everyday conversation and politics as it has been in the past six years or so. faith is a wonderful thing, but it's an individual thing and an individual's religious beliefs should not be the laws that govern everyone.
i personally don't think it's a bad thing to be christian. and i commend anyone who can invest all of their faith in something. there are things i don't agree with, and it's not clear to me if they're with christianity itself or those who practice it's interpretation of it. but the bottom line is you can't force your religion on others, no matter what the religion is. the big difference between buddhists or whatever being celebrated is because they're not expecting everyone to be buddhists and live by their rules, whereas christians right now do.
i've said this a bunch of times, but i think the dislike/distrust of christians comes from the pushing of certain beliefs. christians want the 10 commandments on public property, they want prayer in school, they want religion taught in school, but they only want theirs and they only want it taught in their interpretation of it. you and i can read the bible and get very different things out of it.
Karen, in all honestly, I really truly hope that you NEVER stop commenting on these posts. You have NO idea how much I appreciate your point of view - actually how much I need it - because very often it makes me stop and think and re-evaluate things, which EXACTLY what needs to be done. It's too easy, no matter what you believe, to run in circles where other people agree with you... and that gets no one anywhere.
A couple things: True - Christianity has been totally warped by people professing to be "Christian" and not living it. And you're totally right, over the last few years and also over the course of history. People make Christianity an agenda to push and a pedestal to stand on rather than a true way of life, which is what it should be.
Actually... in thinking about it. I wonder if we may be better off as a whole if people would simply encourage religion in general. I guess I feel like there's a push towards NO religion... what if no single religion was pushed but instead, as a society, it was normal to simply encourage the practice of religion? Say... like exercise, if we could all get behind the idea that practicing a religion is good for you, physically and emotionally, then we'd encourage people to choose something and say 'good for you' when they did...
Just a thought.
You know that none of this is ever personally directed at you, right karen? because I always feel that your comments are never personally directed at any of us, but just at your understanding of whatever the subject is as a whole...
I think what we're talking about is a level of respect, whatever your personal beliefs (or for that matter, your tastes in clothes, music, and choice of location or occupation)...we can talk about church and even theology...we can laugh at ourselves...and we can learn from each other. That's cool. God is bigger than our petty differences...and the law isn't about morality. It's about control so we can live together in society. I think that the no religion/secularism is the root cause of the backlash of more, um, militant forms of Christianity...I think educated people can deal with different interpretations of the same data much better. But by educated, I don't just mean "people with degrees" but also people who *engaged* in truly trying to understand others. That's where we are few in number.
No, I don't take this stuff as personally directed at me. And I'm glad you don't take my comments that way. I'm sometimes hesitant to comment because I know I'll be the only opposing or critical comment and I don't want it to come off as me trying to attack what you've written or change your mind. If I could, then you wouldnt' be very strong in your faith, would you? :)
I agree with ... well, everything you said in the last comment, Rochelle.
People spend too much time with only people who share their viewpoint and consuming information from only sources that say what they want to hear.
the christians i know who i think are good christians and whose faith i respect are those who, as you described it, live it instead of preaching it. i get that if a person believes in something strongly, particularly something so important as religion, they want to share it with others. but i wish more people realized how sharing by example is so much more powerful than forcing and judging and preaching.
i think christianity gets that rap because it's so much more visibly powerful than any other religion - in this country anyway. christian groups have the ear of national leaders in ways that other religions don't, and it seems the really prominent christians are the ones who are at the extreme end of the spectrum. the public image of christianity is not the everyday life of an ordinary christian. it's the extreme, and then that's piled on by crazies like rush limbaugh.
other religions would probably be the same were they the ones with the most power.
i also think there are some very contentious issues in the past few years - end of life, homosexuality, abortion - that have been divisive. these are the subjects that make me hesitant about religion.
I actually think we should be more open about religion. I think I said before we should have religion in schools, but it should be everything taught in a general sort of way. We should be teaching our kids growing up about all religions and their histories and how they interact and what they believe. they should be encouraged to have discussions about what they believe so we can learn at a young age how to interact without religion being a fight. I also think time should be allowed for kids to pray if they want.
what i don't think should happen is everyone has to do one thing. that's what started all this mess in the first place. in trying to not alienate kids of different faiths, we've cut it all out, which is what put christians on the defensive. now people are being taught they should be embarassed by what they believe in, which is totally wrong. you're telling people they should be embarassed by who they are. my problem is just that when christians make the argument that we should have religion in schools or wherever, they need to allow everything in. Or it has to be nothing at all, which clearly isn't going well.
like i said before, if you get to the very base of most religions, they share the same basic tenets, and those are things that aren't necessarily religious in nature. they're just about being good people. we can certainly use more of that. how you get there i don't care, as long as you do and you don't force me to think exactly the same.
but, i don't really see us getting there anytime soon. or probably ever, sadly.
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